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REM1875
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Posted: September 14 2018 at 12:10pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

I have had to buy some of that pricey expensive stuff.

I now try and have a store bought box of ammo for each
caliber...for home defense ...
I ain't gonna have some perp's lawyer tell a jury how I
custom made bullets just to maim and and cruelly injure
their client.....I got too much to loose ......

I also found out from long time in the military medical
field, that there is a concept of 'too dead'..... if you
keep firing after the perp is dead you are off to prison.
Happened not all that long ago not too far from here....
To me dead is dead .......but to others the bizarre idea
of "I hope he didn't die of anything serious" exist... I
mean he is dead ....how much more serious can it be ???
Whether ya pass in you sleep or kiss a Burlington
Northern at full speed you are gone....

Lawyers !!!


Edited by REM1875 on September 14 2018 at 12:10pm
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turbo1889
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Posted: September 15 2018 at 4:12am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

REM1875 wrote:
. . . if you
keep firing after the perp is dead you are
off to prison.

Happened not all that long ago not too far
from here....

To me dead is dead .......but to others
the bizarre idea
of "I hope he didn't die of anything
serious" exist... I
mean he is dead ....how much more serious
can it be ???
Whether ya pass in you sleep or kiss a
Burlington
Northern at full speed you are gone....

Lawyers !!!


There is the "in shock" defense for that
which has in some cases been used
successfully, but if you want to use that
defense you need to keep pulling the
trigger and making it go click, click even
after it is empty until someone finally
comes up to you and shakes you out of it
at which point you just stare at them not
saying anything with your eyes not
focusing on them or anything else.

Or so I have been told.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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turbo1889
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Posted: September 15 2018 at 4:32am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

As to dying there are worse ways to go
then others.

But I'm talking the difference between
being shot in both knees and then in the
guts and left to die slow somewhere in the
middle of nowhere vs. being shot in the
head and not ever knowing what happened
just lights out.

If I were "king of the world for a day"
that is the basis upon which I'd
set things up to be judged in such cases.

Someobody break into your house in the
middle of the night and you shoot them
dead regardless of what you used, fine.
You grab a chain saw and attack them and
take them down with the chain saw, okay
maybe a little bit of investigation to be
sure you didn't choose the chainsaw over
more appropriate and just as available or
more available option because your a
sadist and preferred a chainsaw because
you like the blood and gore and the pain
and terror of who you used it on is called
for. Capture the home invader alive and
tie them up and take them out back and use
them for target practice with 22s shooting
to kill slowly by a thousand wounds
laughing and drinking beer and live-
streaming it on the net and saying this is
what happens to anyone that messes with
you, okay now we are talking your going to
go to jail and probably take the long walk
to the green door at the end of the long
hallway.

You know like basic common sense sort of
stuff.

Edited by turbo1889 on September 15 2018 at 4:33am


__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: September 15 2018 at 6:14am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I investigated something over 30 homicides over my 35 years with the criminal justice system. I can tell you for a certitude that there is no uniformity, in the way cases are prosecuted.

There is no one form, with the fill in the blanks for your name that makes a better defense than any other.

The rule is be polite to the policemen, but decline any statements until you have council present.

The comment that well if you have nothing to hide than you should talks to the cops, is just a ploy to circumvent the Miranda decision.

Even if you are not under arrest do not talk without a lawyer.

The mechanism here is that there is someone dead in or near your house, there is reason to believe you are responsible, that makes you a murder suspect.

You may or may not be arrested, the decision to prosecute or not rests with the prosecuting attorney, the police cannot make the determination.

Once you use deadly force, how you do that is relatively insignificant, compared with the motivation that brought you to that course of action.


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RT58
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Posted: September 17 2018 at 11:21am | IP Logged Quote RT58

REM1875 wrote:
I also found out from long time in the military medical
field, that there is a concept of 'too dead'..... if you
keep firing after the perp is dead you are off to prison.
Happened not all that long ago not too far from here....


Rem, can you explain further on the "too dead" concept and give more details on the incident that happened close to you?
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REM1875
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Posted: September 17 2018 at 3:11pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

?

Edited by REM1875 on September 17 2018 at 4:02pm
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RT58
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Posted: September 18 2018 at 1:19pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

REM1875 wrote:
?

Like what is the charge that will send you to prison? Abuse of a corpse or is there something else they used?
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REM1875
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Posted: September 18 2018 at 1:54pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

I am not sure what they charged him with.... it involved 2
very young armed black kids and the victim used a Judge
......Trial by media made a big issue about the Judge and
their ages (they were armed)....Happened in or around OKC a
while back and I am not sure what happened at the trial
....the news cycle had moved on to other things ....

Self defense is an issue the DA decides .....If it keeps
half the city from burning you can bet it's gonna go bad
for you.....

Edited by REM1875 on September 18 2018 at 1:59pm
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RT58
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Posted: September 18 2018 at 5:04pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Was that the case involving the pharmacist that was all over the internet and news medias? I don't recall anything about the Judge being an issue, the main issue was he shot the robber, who fell to the ground, then chased the second robber out of the store. He came back into the pharmacy and got a second gun and shot the seriously injured first robber several more times, even though he posed no threat.

If that's the same incident it wasn't a case of the robber being "too dead", it was a case of "innocent citizen mistakes justifiable right to use deadly force as a license to kill". There's been a lot of those and we've even had a few around here.

Simply put...Once you are no longer in danger of serious physical harm, you are no longer justified to use deadly force.
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REM1875
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Posted: September 18 2018 at 9:59pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Yes I believe so and here locally they talked about the
Judge .......never heard about a second gun or him
shooting the kid multiple time after he was down ......I
do believe he did shoot him again because he was moving
.....
I don't think he chased the other punk down, although he
did shoot him. (hard to chase a 12 or 13 y/o down and
shoot him with a judge I would think) but it was a while
ago .... I don't even know if he was convicted .... But
locally the "judge" was one of the big issues along with
their age ........

OKC is the next big city but that is still 150 miles from
us so even though it's "local" news, events closer than
that leave us with spotty coverage......

Edited by REM1875 on September 18 2018 at 10:11pm
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REM1875
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Posted: September 18 2018 at 10:22pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

You are correct about the second gun and multiple shots,
but he still viewed the perp as a threat .....
It was a very controversial case as you can read here,
which many believe should not have even gone to court
.....

https://abcnews.go.com/US/oklahoma-pharmacist-dead-robbers-
accomplices-life-prison/story?id=14053802

Edited by REM1875 on September 18 2018 at 10:27pm
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RT58
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Posted: September 19 2018 at 2:56pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Rem, I read your link and several other articles, they all had different facts which is how the media works. But if you view the video you can see the two boys enter the store, one is pointing a pistol at the people behind the counter while the other is pulling a mask out of his pants. You can see the one with the mask go down while the one with the pistol runs out of the store. It then shows the pharmacist run out, then return and go behind the counter and retrieve the other pistol. He then stands over the wounded robber and shoots him several times.

Up to the "coup de gras" the pharmacist was a hero, but it was that moment that sealed his fate, that and the varying statements he gave trying to justify his actions.

Local dramas usually do tear a community apart as people will form their own opinions based on hearsay, rumors and a pinch of facts that they hear from the media, friends, family and just about everyone else.

The guns, nor the boys ages or race weren't really an issue, although I'm sure different groups certainly tried to make them one for their own benefit. People are going to make an issue out of every shooting, rather justified or not, and every other incident that will get them an audience. Police officers and Prosecutors are people also and there are some that are motivated by greed, power, popularity, money, race and etc. too, fortunately it's not as common as many think, but it does happen.

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REM1875
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Posted: September 19 2018 at 6:43pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

LoL this divided a community and I can see we are are
different sides ......but it's long over but the appeals ..

Since I carry a judge loaded with shot around the house it
kinda grabbed my attention....

I did not see the video and till I looked this up the other
day I had no idea if he was convicted or not ......

Edited by REM1875 on September 19 2018 at 6:45pm
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: September 20 2018 at 6:39am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

RT58 wrote:


Up to the "coup de gras" the pharmacist was a hero, but it was that moment that sealed his fate, that and the varying statements he gave trying to justify his actions.


Sounds to me like this person did not have a good attorney, and had too much to say before he got one.

Prosecuting attorneys all pretty much have the same motivation, to keep their high paying jobs.

Unfortunately throughout the criminal justice system, there are a number of people that believe that ends justify the means.

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REM1875
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Posted: September 20 2018 at 1:29pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

John Van Gelder wrote:
RT58 wrote:


Up to the "coup de gras" the pharmacist was a hero, but
it was that moment that sealed his fate, that and the
varying statements he gave trying to justify his actions.


Sounds to me like this person did not have a good
attorney, and had too much to say before he got one.

Prosecuting attorneys all pretty much have the same
motivation, to keep their high paying jobs.

Unfortunately throughout the criminal justice system,
there are a number of people that believe that ends
justify the means.



It's why we have a lot of innocent people who accept plea
bargains .......
Amazing how many of a DA convictions never made it to the
inside of a court room ......
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RT58
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Posted: September 20 2018 at 2:57pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

John, the best attorney in the world wouldn't have made a difference in his case, the video pretty much told it all, and refuted everything he said.

From reading some of the articles on websites he tried to appeal based on the things he forgot to mention during the first trial. He must have forgotten the video since then too because it made him out to be a bigger liar.

I've heard of several cases on gun forums where the good guy ended up going to jail and everyone was supposed to feel sorry for them. I haven't so far because they got what was coming to them. No, it isn't always that way, but it happens. I'd suggest everyone that has a gun for self defense learn about your legal rights and responsibilities, but don't know where to suggest you start.
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RT58
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Posted: September 20 2018 at 3:42pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Rem, you can still google the video from several sources. Let me know what you think.

We had a shooting here last year that caused a lot of rumors and divided comments. Even once the facts were made known that the guy didn't act in self defense, as he claimed and the law defined, there were still people saying he should be found innocent.. because he was such a nice guy I guess. Unfortunately that's not how it works and he was found guilty.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: September 21 2018 at 6:38am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

There is a chance that a good attorney could have had the video suppressed, or at least the inflammatory portions there of.

I have worked with some pretty talented criminal attorneys that specialized in homicide cases.

If you are going to carry a firearm, and you live some place where there is a chance that you may have to use it against another human, you need to know your stat/municipality laws concerning the use of deadly force.

Almost every one has a doctor, having an attorney is just as good a practice, some one who practices criminal law. The guy that does contracts and wills, will not suffice.

A close friend of mine is the local city attorney, I used to work cases for her when I had my PI business, along with a dozen other attorneys I worked with.

Gun clubs of any size will have an attorney, I believe the NRA still has a legal aide function.

The law is not "rocket science", it can be a bit confusing, but in this day and age most of the information is at our finger tips. You just have to look.

There is an old saying among investigators.."if you do not ask the right questions, you will not get the right answers."
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RT58
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Posted: September 21 2018 at 4:22pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

I've had a lot of doctors, and have used a few attorneys. It's a lot easier to find a good doctor than to find a good attorney, but John is correct, if you need either one get a specialist.

I have never needed a criminal attorney and have never met one I'd want on my side...other than the county prosecutor and few of his assistants. I was always glad they were on my side. I don't know if the other criminal attorneys were specialists or general practitioners since I didn't hire them.

And doctors differ from attorneys in that my insurance will pay for a specialist doctor.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: September 22 2018 at 7:10am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Like any other profession there are good and bad attorneys.

The hourly rate is not a good indicator. I have dealt with high priced attorneys, that were useless and others who got paid what ever the county rate for appointed cases was, that worked themselves nearly to death for their clients.

Not a cherry topic, and with any luck none of us will ever find themselves in a situation where we have to make a decision about using deadly force.

But it never hurts to be prepared.
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