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REM1875
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Posted: September 22 2018 at 9:20am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

I got to tell you when the adrenaline starts flowing
training kicks in. After that it's the best ya can do......
The individual is probably gonna second guess what happens
afterwards .........and so are others who were not
there.....
Remembering rules, regulations and laws usually are not at
the fore front of of the thought process.
As a matter of fact if you are reviewing laws, rules,
regulations, checking background for safe shot placement
then you probably are in a situation   where pulling the
trigger might not the best choice.....
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RT58
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Posted: September 23 2018 at 8:39am | IP Logged Quote RT58

REM1875 wrote:
I got to tell you when the adrenaline starts flowing
training kicks in... Remembering rules, regulations and laws usually are not at
the fore front of of the thought process.
As a matter of fact if you are reviewing laws, rules,
regulations, checking background for safe shot placement
then you probably are in a situation   where pulling the
trigger might not the best choice.....


Police officers are put into these situations on a daily basis, yet they are not trained any better than the average citizen, and usually a lot worse. If you can't train in shoot-no shoot situations at least read up on it, and focus on it, continually until it's part of your thinking process.

The whole purpose of training is to make you more aware of what is happening and to be able to handle it more calmly and not in an absolute, mindless panic. Officers I'd talked to after shootings were quick to say it wasn't like anything they'd ever trained for. Maybe training should be based more on reality and less on games that have nothing to do with it.
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turbo1889
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Posted: September 25 2018 at 1:56am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

In response to the previous posts, especially the one
directly above.

I have been in one deadly force defensive situation,
it was not against a human but against an attacking
dog who chased me down on my bicycle and got ahold of
my leg and made me crash my bicycle and then after I
crashed went for my neck and chewed on the back of my
neck and tried to chew on the sides and front of my
neck but I was able to shield with my arms and hands
while fighting to get up above the dogs level. Once I
finally got up the dog went back to chewing on my leg
and doing the "tub of war" thing throwing its weight
from side to side with its jaw clamped on my leg
trying to drag me back down again.

I was able to get off three safe, aimed shots all of
which were hits on the dog and all of which were fired
in a downward angle such as to hit the ground after
going through the dog or if I missed (gun was loaded
with richoshay resistant loads, I was glad I planned
ahead on that). It was a conscious choice to make the
shots in a safe manner and to make them aimed shots
(was not only a matter of hitting the target but also
a "no-shoot" that was my own leg that had to be
avoided).

Part of those results was training:

In my younger teenage years it was from my Grandfather
who was a Marine in the occupation of Japan (he would
have been in the invasion of the home islands if they
hadn't of surrendered after the two A-bomb drops) and
then through the duration in Korea and was state-side
for the early years of Vietnam working on developing
better training programs for the boys about to be
shipped over. The brass above him didn't like some of
the changes his group pushed and little to none of it
was adopted and he retired in frustration. Started
with basic gun handling skills but went beyond that
later, he expected you to not panic and still keep
your muzzle down range when he came up beside you and
with no warning literally walloped you up side of your
head so hard it would knock you and your rifle to the
floor off the shooting bench at the range. He would
then demand you immediately make a string of good hits
immediately right there from where you had been
slammed to the ground.

As a young man I'm ashamed to say that the thought of
pointing my rifle somewhere other then at the proper
targets downrange did cross my mind a time or two.

Doing something like that today to a barely teenager
would probably get you booked for child abuse.

But then, in the one incident I've actually been in I
managed to pull it off okay considering (and we aren't
even going to get into what happened when the cops
showed up, I'm not going to cop bash here) and I
managed to handle that well enough that it never ended
up in court partially because I don't think the other
parties involved wanted the whole story told.

Now, it wasn't all my Grandpa's tough love back when I
was a young teenage punk. I've trained plenty on my
own since then both before and after the dog incident.
Up to the point where I have used a private range
where the range owner for personal training use has
rigged the range to simulate incoming fire with 68-cal
hard black rubber balls that the owner managed to find
for sale in bulk for reasonable (but still a lot of
money by my standard) intended for some other use that
are fired from automated air guns powered by scuba
tanks that are mounted so they bounce around from the
recoil of each shot so they just spray a cone of fire
over a whole area and the only way they stop firing at
you is if you make a prescribed number of hits on a
steel plate target rigged with some kind of sensor
doo-hicky to each of the guns or they run out of balls
or the scuba tank runs dry (that takes a long while).
The hit hard enough to leave big red welts through
heavy clothing that take days to heal and you have to
wear a face mask and neck protector because a hit on
those sensitive areas could lead to serious injury.

Because the owner of this private range would not like
me to say who they are or where exactly it is I cant
give that info. I don't want to loose the
relationship I have developed and want to continue to
have access to that range. Its not something I do
very often because it is NOT fun but if next time its
not a dog I think I will be more prepared by the
occasional run on that range. Granted I spend most of
my time cowering behind what little cover there is
trying to take a few shots as I can and usually manage
to turn off a couple of the incoming fire guns before
they run dry but so far I've never been able to clear
that range where as the range owner can do it more
often then not. But then in the real thing incoming
fire is supposed to have right of way isn't it? The
real annoyance of course is cleaning up all those
balls (or at least as many as I can find) and
returning them to the hopper and a few dollars in the
can towards keeping the pump that refills the scuba
tanks running.

__________________
What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: September 25 2018 at 8:14am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Just as important as any amount of training, is "mind set", there are numerous instances of police officers being shot during an armed confrontation, they died from recoverable wounds, because they told them selves they were going to die.

Using deadly force against another human is just not in our natures, there is some conditioning there, the resolve to do what you have to do just to make it home at the end of the watch.
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RT58
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Location: NE Ohio
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Posted: September 25 2018 at 4:29pm | IP Logged Quote RT58

Turbo, that sounds interesting and I wish I had something like that years ago. Shooting at targets that don't shoot back is really nothing more than target practice. And John is right, mindset has a lot to do with winning a gunfight.

I don't understand our modern tactical experts. Choosing a gun that makes "major" and shooting more targets in the "A" zone in less time than the other competitors makes you a master gunfighter. It might make you better at that game than the others, but thugs don't play that game...
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REM1875
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Posted: September 25 2018 at 5:51pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

I read where the two greatest fencing masters of the 16th
century were killed in street brawls by common thugs....

Some times the clinical and didactic are separated by the
wide gulf of reality ..... hence the statement most
military learn at their first job after training is "all
that stuff you learned in school ?.....forget it !"
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