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John Van Gelder
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Posted: August 24 2018 at 6:38am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

I found this most interesting, a compilation of human and large predator interactions.

Dangerous Predators Stopped with Handguns

Edited by John Van Gelder on August 24 2018 at 6:40am
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STCM(SW)
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Posted: August 24 2018 at 10:49am | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

A few years ago in North ID a man & his wife were walking there small dog in the woods.
A bull moose charged his wife who had the dog on a leash.
As the moose charged past her husband he fired one shot with a 38 revolver and dropped the moose in it's tracks.
Think it was a neck shot.
This was just outside of Coeur d' Alene.

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Desert Eagle41
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Posted: August 24 2018 at 11:44am | IP Logged Quote Desert Eagle41

Interesting!! for sure. Being a concealed carry person I would like to be able to carry more power and more rounds but the concealed part stops me from that. I usually carry 9mm but only 8 rounds with 7 in a backup mag. Still not enough if you ask me. I like my new Sig 320 but not for carry. It seems I have spent 15 years looking for the right gun to carry and haven't found it yet. Craig

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mikld
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Posted: August 24 2018 at 12:03pm | IP Logged Quote mikld

I think I would be/am more concerned with my reaction
time than caliber. I too have read of large animals
being stopped by 357 Magnum and I usually have at least
that caliber when walking in the woods, but more often
a 44 Magnum. I haven't read of many attacks that were
seen coming, where the person attacked had time to
react, many times it's just a surprise attack (I have
read of several attacks by Mountain Lions and none saw
the lion coming, it was an ambush attack). If I saw a
bear or lion coming down the path, then running toward me
I might have time to draw and fire, but how often does
that happen?

Edited by mikld on August 24 2018 at 12:06pm


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turbo1889
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Posted: August 24 2018 at 7:43pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

When "out in the wilds" or as the title of
this thread puts it when "field carrying".   
My EDCC (Every Day Concealed Carry) is my
backup not my primary.

I carry a primary visibly holstered in an
easy and quick draw setup, usually a
heavier and more powerful cartridge then
my EDCC and often a revolver rather then
an auto.

The one exception being when the weather
is just right for wearing a heavy coat
unzipped in which case a shoulder harness
allows for maintaining concealment while
still having heavier firepower available
from a quickly accessable holster rig.

Yes of course I realize that people have
successfully defended themselves against
bears with little pocket pistols, but
personally I find that with human threats
as a civilian concealment is most
important where as with four legged
threats heavy stopping power and quick
easy access from a real quality holster is
most important. There may be a few of the
really smart and conniving four legged
critters out there who can tell if you
have a gun on you and alter their actions
towards you accordingly but the only time
I have seen any evidence of that is with
coyotes and crows and specific to long
guns and their behavior change is to stay
away run away, not get more sneaky and
work more on setting up a better ambush
like two legged trouble is capable of.

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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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turbo1889
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Posted: August 24 2018 at 8:14pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

Forgot to mention specifically what kind
of guns/ammo I carry for "field carry".
That would be higher powered but still
controllable guns loaded with heavy for
caliber hard cast lead bullets:

357-mag. Minimum 4" barrel with 210-grain
+P loads

10mm full size full length barrel, 220-
grain wide nose TC +P loads

44-mag. Minimum 4" barrel with 270-to-300
grain +P loads

45-ACP +P+ woodsman load copy only in
strong full size gun especially out of my
Taurus moon clip revolver (260-gr WFN hard
cast ) a little on the iffy side but still
quite capable.

45-Colt either "Ruger Only" type loads in
a handgun that can handle them or a
woodsman load copy for 45-Colt guns that
can't go all the way up to "Ruger Only"
loads which are sort of a misnomer since
there are guns besides Rugers that can
handle them.

Custom loads for 45-Colt/410-shot
combination revolvers made from magtech
full length brass 410 shell that fire a
single heavy hard cast projectile with
more punch then a 45-Colt can within
normal pressure levels by taking advantage
of the extra space available and getting
the bullet further into the throat for
better accuracy with those guns.

And I do have a BFR in 45-70 I sometimes
"field carry" and obviously almost any
load in that thing will be up to the task,
but once again hard cast flattish nose
bullets are preferable. I prefer not to
go crazy heavy on the bullet weight though
with that one and usually don't shoot
anything heavier then 405s out of it with
350ish being the norm.

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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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doghawg
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Posted: August 24 2018 at 8:52pm | IP Logged Quote doghawg

John

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.

I despise crossbows but it does give me an excuse to sit in the woods in October before our November gun season. My biggest concern is an encounter with a sow with cubs so I carry a Ruger Bisley .45 Colt in a shoulder holster and loaded with 300 gr. RCBS GC at 1100 fps when out with the x-bow.

My nephews hunting partner had a cub coming toward him and he tried to scare it off but instead it crawled up a tree right next to him and started crying for mom. He ended up shooting the sow head on in the chest at 10 feet with a compound bow and she turned and ran, lucky for him. He called the warden and they found the sow the next morning. The warden determined it was a justifiable kill and then commented that he should have been carrying a sidearm. Baiting was still legal up there then and the sow and cubs were coming in to dine on his corn and apples.

Randy

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M700
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Posted: August 24 2018 at 9:12pm | IP Logged Quote M700

"Note that a 300 grain .44 Magnum (for example) will penetrate more hide, muscle and organs than most common deer rifles. This is understood by few and a subject worthy of its own article."

Good article. The author, Larry Mudgett, is well respected in handgunning circles.

Thanks for posting this John!

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STCM(SW)
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Posted: August 24 2018 at 9:55pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

I haven't carried my M29 in the woods for many years now.
I'm more then sure of the two S&W 44 SPL revolvers I do carry are capable of doing the job since there my hand loads with 240 gr KSWC I molded.
They are a M24 5" & a M21 4".

Edited by STCM(SW) on August 24 2018 at 10:04pm


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John Van Gelder
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Posted: August 25 2018 at 5:24am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

This has been a real "bear of a summer".. I have been seeing bears on a daily basis. I had three in the same tree yesterday, a mom with two cubs.

I have dogs so being ambushed by a bear or big cat is not very likely.

I have taken a number of bears, and the the standard Keith load in the .357 is pretty reliable, and will penetrate more than the .240 grain .44 magnum load.

My point here is that something, no matter what the caliber is better than going unarmed.

A .38 in your pocket is better than a .460 in the gun case at home.
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turbo1889
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Posted: August 25 2018 at 6:44am | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

John Van Gelder wrote:
. . .

My point here is that something, no matter
what the caliber is better than going
unarmed.

A .38 in your pocket is better than a .460
in the gun case at home.


Agreed, but I would suggest splitting the
difference if possible and going with
something smaller then the 460 that you
will actually carry but at the same time
not going all the way down to the 38.

Unless the 38 is a 38-Super even just a
9x19 is a better option for actually
penetrating deep enough on a big animal
especially if you load it with NATO mil
spec loads. The best 38-spl load for
penetration I have developed is a custom
+P handload pushing a 210-gr hard cast to
the high 700s for muzzle velocity from a
5" barrel revolver and even that is a
little on the iffy side for a big animal
and I have never seen anyone including
buffalo bore make a factory load that can
do what it does for a 38-spl loading and
38-auto or worse yet 380 can't be loaded
to do what even a 38-spl can.

But as you say I would rather be caught
with nothing but a 38, even if that 38 was
a 380 then be caught bare handed!!! With a
380 I guess best bet would be trying to
shoot the bear right in the nose when it
closed to 10-ft or so. Their nose is
supposedly the most sensitive part of
their body so even if the little pee
shooters pee didn't go up the nasal cavity
up into the brain would hopefully hurt
enough mess up their sense of smell enough
they would back off or not be able to find
you.

Edited by turbo1889 on August 25 2018 at 6:51am


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What part of, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be INFRINGED" don't you understand ?!?!?

To the most serious charge of "ARMING WOMEN" I plead guilty on multiple counts.
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REM1875
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Posted: August 25 2018 at 10:03am | IP Logged Quote REM1875

Carry
The largest concerns are cougar and packs of feral hogs.
Reality is more coyote, wild dogs and .......

Rattlers and copperheads...

I often carry a "Judge" When on the property or lower
pasture...
The .410 slug has the same weight and speed as the 9mm so
that has been ruled out ........
After looking at the results of shot I realize it is for
snakes close up........
anything else is 45 S&W, 45 Colt or .410 0-0-0 or
better.....
Carried in a shoulder holster....


Edited by REM1875 on August 25 2018 at 10:06am
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M700
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Posted: August 25 2018 at 12:04pm | IP Logged Quote M700

Biggest threat where I normally go is of the two-legged sub-human criminal variety.

However I also camp, hunt, fish, and travel where there are grizzlies, wolves, mountain lions, etc... In fact a brisk 30 minute walk from my driveway will have me in country harboring black bear, mountain lion and wolves.

Lots of coyotes, and I don't necessarily discount them. They need to be educated now and again too.

I figure, like John stated, that something is better than nothing. I've packed a lot of different handguns, primarily the good ol 45 1911. It's the gun I've worked with the most over the past 40 years or so, and I shoot it the best.


But time to time I'll choose the 357 mag Model 19, or the 44 mag S&W 629. I do enjoy using those two revolvers.




Last couple of years I've found it's so very easy to carry a small, concealable 9mm... My choice is the Kahr, which I really enjoy! There are many other good choices available these days. No, despite ol' Phil Shoemaker, I'm not thinking of the little 9mm as serious bear medicine, but it's comforting to know that he at least succeeded with that!


A recent incident, earlier this year, convinced me that I really ought to have a gun with me all the time, and so now the little 9mm gets slipped into my bicycling jersey. Nobody who rides with me has detected it, not even after following me for miles. I was surprised at that, and pleased. This 62 year old spends a lot of time on the bike every week, often in very rural, lightly populated areas, so it's nice to be able to be armed "just in case."




Stay safe out there gentlemen!

Guy
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STCM(SW)
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Posted: August 25 2018 at 12:31pm | IP Logged Quote STCM(SW)

Gee Guy, soon you will be older then me! LOL!
An the funny thing is I have a pistol or revolver
with me all the time now....
In the house, yard or where ever. Just think I now look like an easy mark to some of the drug takers there around now.

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M700
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Posted: August 25 2018 at 5:04pm | IP Logged Quote M700

Snicker... You'll suck 'em in good...

Sometimes, when I was in my mid 50's, I'd start walking home from the police station at 2300, or midnight even... In civilian clothes. I'd stop at the local "stop and rob" ie "convenience store" and buy a six pack of beer.

Then I'd walk home via the alleys and "bad streets" looking as old and tired as I could. It never worked, but I kept trying.

Guy
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John Van Gelder
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Posted: August 26 2018 at 5:29am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

Lots of comments about what folks carry, an important part of being prepared for some sort of encounter is to carry something you have confidence in. Different situations require different tools.

Like the Chief I am out in it every day and do not leave the house unarmed. Which brings to mind a line from a TV series, one of the guys makes the comment "I am from Texas, I don't go to the bathroom without a gun"!

When folks talk about carrying afield, it is always for bear protection, when you are much more likely to be attacked by feral dogs, or feral humans. I do not recall the statistic, but a fair number of hunters are injured by deer, usually after shooting the deer with a rifle, walking up to the deer putting the rifle down, and having the deer jump up as they are approaching.

I would much rather deal with bears than feral pigs, I bowhunted pigs in Hawaii and Australia, killed a fair number of hogs, the guys I hunted with in the Northern Territory, would kill on the average of 100 pigs on a two day hunt. When they went out the carried arrows by the gross.

The point here is that I have seen just how ugly wild pigs can get. FMJ or hard cast bullets are the answer.


The last line from the article. "Notice that certain 9 mm loads penetrated as much as the most powerful calibers tested here. As far as penetration, is concerned it appears the bullet being used is more important than the caliber."

We are all hand loaders, and in most cases cast our own bullets, we can make our own hard cast bullets and +P loads for occasional use..which keeps the pocket .38s in the running, so to speak.

There lessons to be learned from the Alaska guide's incident, was that you have to stand your ground, running from a bear just invites them to attack you. When in fact they may have just been bluffing. Use a good hard bullet either cast or FMJ.

There is no perfect caliber, you will do best with what you are the most familiar with and most comfortable carrying.

Those of us who carry every day may seem a bit paranoid, but the old adage "it is better to have something and not need it, than to need it an not have it", comes to mind.
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M700
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Posted: August 26 2018 at 8:25am | IP Logged Quote M700

Had an interesting conversation with a fellow who was paid to control the number of bears on a large piece of land here in the northwest, belonging to a big lumber/paper company. The bears would ruin the trees, and their population needed to be controlled. He did some hunting, and also used a lot of traps, then killed the bears.

Told me he killed over 200 black bears during his years on that job! His preferred tool was a 44 magnum revolver with 240 grain jacketed soft point bullets. Said he'd tried the hard cast, and although they penetrated really well, the soft points produced a more immediate reaction and killed quicker.

I thought that with the large number of bears he'd killed, his opinion carried some weight, so I switched to 240 grain soft points for my carry ammo in the 44 mag.

Another buddy of mine clobbered a wounded bear with his 44 mag using some kind of 300 grain hard cast bullets - we were maybe 12 feet from the bear! The big hard-cast worked splendidly.

Probably more about where ya hit 'em, than what ya hit 'em with, but I'd certainly avoid the fast-expanding hollow points if bears or some other large animal is the subject. Gotta have some penetration!

Guy
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Posted: August 26 2018 at 1:43pm | IP Logged Quote KinleyWater

Two summers ago the wife and I had a close-in with a couple of very large black bears at a park where we were camping. I had my carry 9mm with regular JHP loads. Two days later, I purchased a brand new S&W M69 in 44 Mag. This past year, I bought a 1911 in 10mm. I find the 10mm to be the more flexible of the outdoor guns insofar as being appropriate for concealed carry and general woods carry.

For now, I carry the 10mm when hiking and generally enjoying the outdoors and the 44 Mag when out hunting. I do this because hunting is when I expect I may actually go looking for a bear.

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John Van Gelder
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Posted: August 27 2018 at 6:10am | IP Logged Quote John Van Gelder

My neighbor the federal game agent, has killed considerably more than 200 bears, and most of those, were trapped, or treed bears, he shot with a .22. Where you hit them is more important.

For most of the black bears or mt lions you encounter, anything that is comparable to the standard .45 Colt load is adequate. 250-260 grn bullet at 900-1000 fps. The Skeeter Skelton load of 7.5 grn of Unique and a 250 grn. bullet, in the .44 spl. falls into that range. The benefit of the .44s and .45s, if you live in snake country, the bigger cases facilitate more shot.

.38-44 loadings in guns suitable for that load. In the .357 the jacketed soft points may work, but I would still go with the old standby Keith load 170 grn bullet and 13.5 grn of 2400.

A 200 grn hard cast in either the 10mm or the .45ACP+P.

The 10mm is becoming quite popular with handgun hunters, and there is a good selection of bullets available, plenty of power with good "portability".

I am still thinking about a .45 Super conversion kit, for one of the 1911s.   
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M700
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Posted: August 27 2018 at 9:59am | IP Logged Quote M700

John Van Gelder wrote:


I am still thinking about a .45 Super conversion kit, for one of the 1911s.   


Me too. Have been toying with that idea for quite a few years. I just have so much fun with the regular ol' 45 ACP that I guess I'm reluctant to change anything. But... I do have a pair of good 1911's, so I could go 45 Super in one, just for the heck of it.

John - you think there'd be trouble with regular 45 ACP hollow point bullets impacting at 45 Super velocity? I think I'd want to run a sturdy bullet. Hard cast, or maybe one of the tougher jacketed bullets.

I have to admit, I like the 45 ACP/1911 combo 'cause I've been using it so long, with so many rounds... It just feels great to me and I shoot it better than I shoot any other centerfire handgun. I'd likely feel the same about any gun I'd used so much, for so long.

The 10mm makes a lot of sense to me as well.

Guy
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