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Tom W.
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Posted: September 08 2018 at 12:13pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

Today was range day. My rifle showed up. I had several
different loads that I wanted to try, but ended up
shooting just two. The first load shot well but to the
left, as the gunsmith had to remove my scope to do the
rechamber job. I was just shooting @ 50 yards. The second
load was one that I got from the book, and it shot
terribly low, but grouped well. As I am just fire forming
I'm only looking to see what groups the best. I can adjust
the scope to hit where I want later. The brass formed just
fine, nice sharp shoulders and a considerably shorter
neck, at least as compared to the standard 30/30 case.
It didn't take me too long to get pretty worn out, as I
did shoot 50 rounds from my LC9s Pro. 5 grains of True
Blue with a 124 gr TC bullet is pretty snappy in that
pistol.
All in all, I had an enjoyable morning.... Now to get some
dies......

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hoghunter
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Posted: September 08 2018 at 3:15pm | IP Logged Quote hoghunter

Interesting! Never heard of a 30-30 AI before. What kind of velocity are you getting?

Just curious why you'd go that route; sounds cumbersome and complicated. The 30-30 is a good cartridge out to 150 yards. If I needed something more potent I'd opt for a 308 or similar cartridge where you don't need custom cases.

Just my opinion - you know what they say about opinions, everyone has one.
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Buffalogun
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Posted: September 08 2018 at 4:48pm | IP Logged Quote Buffalogun

hh.....The practice of improving cartridges has been
around a long time. Mostly, it benefits cartridges
that were designed around the late 1800's and early
1900's. These cases usually have a good bit of taper.

The improvements usually remove most of the taper,
move the shoulder forward and shorten the neck. The
result is added case capacity. The .30 WCF is one that
gains a lot from the improvements.
Another gain from the improvements is the cases will
handle pressures better and usually stretch less,
which prolongs case life.

An AI cartridge is one that was improved by Parker O.
Ackley. Others have improved cartridges, too.

Why improve a cartridge? Some folks may not have the
money to spring for a new firearm. Improving can
sometimes be done by simply reaming the existing
chamber to the improved design. The barrel doesn't
even have to be removed from the gun.

Tom.....My dies are from LEE.

Using factory ammo for fire-forming is fine. Fire-
forming handloads should be put up in "NEW" cases. If
you fire-form used cases you will likely have case
head separations.

And.....you get the added bonus of still using factory
ammo in the improved chamber whenever you want.

This a group from my Contender...




Mike

Edited by Buffalogun on September 08 2018 at 4:58pm


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Posted: September 08 2018 at 5:48pm | IP Logged Quote USA Joe

Nothing but Success    & thanks

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Tom W.
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Posted: September 08 2018 at 7:20pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

Factory ammo? Me? I haven't fired factory ammo in my
rifles ( except my .22 ) for years. I already have a 30-06
A.I. in my Ruger #1B and love it. I have wanted my NEF
rechambered for a lot of years. I'm not into hunting as I
was ten years or so ago, but still like to shoot. I do
believe all of my 30/30 brass is once fired, I picked it
up at the range all boxed up and neat as a pin. I just
recently acquired a set of dies, prior to that I used my
son's dies, but haven't loaded anything in I dunno how
many years, as I didn't shoot it much. I had an NEF .270,
a Ruger#1B in 7 mm RemMag, and the 30-06 A.I. Ruger #1. My
youngest son used to use the 30/30 until he saved enough
to buy a Savage 7mm RemMag.
I fired 19 rounds today of some loads that I've been
assembling and all the brass came out just fine. One was a
case that I coated the neck with a magic marker when
adjusting my dies, I was surprised as to just how much the
shoulder went forward. My bullets were 160 gr Lee from an
ancient single cavity mold, and an old 165 gr. Ranch Dog
FP bullet. I finger lube these with an old stick of RCBS
rifle lube that I found, put on a gas check and size them,
then tumble lube them in JPW. Never had a trace of
leading.
After Uncle Sam sends my check I'll order a set of dies. I
don't get to shoot as much as I'd like anymore, mostly
once a month with my rifles at the Sheriff's range, unless
I can schedule a time with my boys, but they live 50 miles
away and have strange work schedules. However, I'll
probably try an IMR 3031 load to see how it shoots w/ cast
and sight my scope in with that.

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Paul B.
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Posted: September 09 2018 at 12:26pm | IP Logged Quote Paul B.

"Using factory ammo for fire-forming is fine. Fire-
forming handloads should be put up in "NEW" cases. If
you fire-form used cases you will likely have case
head separations. "

I see some contradiction in the comments. First it should not be a
problem with the 30-30AI as they headspace on the rim so pick up
brass should work just fine.

Even though 30-30 head spaces on the rim, once I shoot new brass or
factory ammo, I set up my die to treat the resizing as if it were a rimless
case like the 30-06. I reload for 6 rifles in 30-30 and treating the brass
as if rimless hasn't been a problem. Seems the chambers in all 6 rifles
are very close in dimension. Five are Winchesters from as early as 1911
and on 60's era Marlin.
The only cartridge I need to fire form is the .735 Taylor. As a point in
principal, I treat all belted brass as if they were rimless cases and
ignore the belt as a head space thing. Measure some of the belts on
new magnum brass prior to firing and see just how much variation
there really is. So shoot as is on the first firing, then set the sizing die
up as if there was no belt. Brass lasts longer when done that way.
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Tom W.
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Posted: September 09 2018 at 1:16pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

When I had my 7mm RemMag I used a sizing die made by Larry
Willis to size the brass all the way down to the belt. It
eliminated the dreaded "doughnut" that caused case life to
be shortened. The die is expensive, but it works so well
it's worth the price!

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Ranch 13
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Posted: September 09 2018 at 3:55pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

If you take the best load you had before the rechamber and add 2 % more
powder all should be well.
I found with slow powders such as R15 and H414, it is quite possible to push
300 savage velocities real easily.
Ramshot Big Game turned out to be extremely accurate in my AI, but the
velocity wasn't anything super exciting.

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Tom W.
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Posted: September 09 2018 at 9:26pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

I'll most probably just be killing paper with the rifle.
I haven't hunted in years now. But it's a rechambering
that I've wanted for years. I like single shot rifles,
and I just like the looks of the A. I. cartridge. I
probably won't load up more than fifty rounds with a 165
gr jacketed bullet, the rest will be the aforementioned
cast bullets at regular 30/30 book velocities. I don't
have a chronograph nor do I have access to one, and I'm
too old to buy one now. A decent group is far more
important than a gazillion fps speed. If I do hunt again,
well, the whitetails here just ain't that big.....

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turbo1889
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Posted: September 11 2018 at 3:35pm | IP Logged Quote turbo1889

My thoughts on the whole 30-30 AI is that
having less body taper and a sharper
shoulder angle is just fine and a
worthwhile improvement to the case design.
But blowing the shoulder forward and
shortening the neck, I don't like that. I
love the nice long necks of the older
cartridge designs especially for cast
bullet use.

To each their own, glad you are happy with
it for your needs!   

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LAH
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Posted: September 11 2018 at 7:13pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

That's fly killing stuff Mike.

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Ranch 13
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Posted: September 12 2018 at 1:48pm | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

Tom W. wrote:
I'll most probably just be killing paper with the rifle.
I haven't hunted in years now. But it's a rechambering
that I've wanted for years. I like single shot rifles,
and I just like the looks of the A. I. cartridge. I
probably won't load up more than fifty rounds with a 165
gr jacketed bullet, the rest will be the aforementioned
cast bullets at regular 30/30 book velocities. I don't
have a chronograph nor do I have access to one, and I'm
too old to buy one now. A decent group is far more
important than a gazillion fps speed. If I do hunt again,
well, the whitetails here just ain't that big.....


You'll do well to remember that cartridge is now a bottle necked cartridge and
the purpose in fire forming was to form the shoulder. So when you get the dies
(mine are Hornady but I'm not sure they offer them now) to just size the neck
and don't disturb the headspace the case now uses on the shoulder.
To me it doesn't much matter whether working up a hunting load or whether a
target load, the accuracy requirements are the same. Velocity is what it is so
long as the groups are small.
The fire formed cases you have now ,have a larger combustion chamber so
slower powders than the parent case got along well with will provide much
more efficient powder burn and resulting accuracy.

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LAH
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Posted: September 13 2018 at 9:57am | IP Logged Quote LAH

I know this goes against the grain but I neck size 30-30
cases fired in my levergun & have no problems.

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Posted: September 13 2018 at 1:29pm | IP Logged Quote richhodg66

LAH wrote:
I know this goes against the grain but I neck size 30-30
cases fired in my levergun & have no problems.


Agreed. The old wisdom that you can only neck size for bolt actions is BS. A lot of rifles will work fine with only neck sizing.

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LAH
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Posted: September 13 2018 at 6:26pm | IP Logged Quote LAH

I'm with you Rich, if they fit, they fit.

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REM1875
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Posted: September 14 2018 at 12:23pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

I noticed listed pressures were higher than 30-30
pressures.......
Will the average 30-30 (mostly lever guns) handle this ?


Most of my 30-30 casings have become 32 Win Spl (much
cheaper brass) but after all these year I broke down and
got two 30-30s ......one a pump and the other a bolt ....

If I keep at it some day I may figure out the AR-15 type
rifles are not some flash in the pan gimmick fad but here
to stay and I might get one ???

Edited by REM1875 on September 14 2018 at 12:50pm
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Posted: September 14 2018 at 12:44pm | IP Logged Quote REM1875

turbo1889 wrote:
My thoughts on the whole 30-30 AI is
that
having less body taper and a sharper
shoulder angle is just fine and a
worthwhile improvement to the case design.
But blowing the shoulder forward and
shortening the neck, I don't like that. I
love the nice long necks of the older
cartridge designs especially for cast
bullet use.

To each their own, glad you are happy with
it for your needs!   


Turbo
I have to agree with you about the longer neck ...That's
why I went to the the trouble of finding 8x56R Hung Brass
rather than making em out of 7.62x54R brass......I like
the neck....
Of course this is a little different because the case is
still the same OAL.
Bullets can still use the crimp groove and still measure
the same.
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Ranch 13
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Posted: September 17 2018 at 7:40am | IP Logged Quote Ranch 13

REM1875 wrote:
I noticed listed pressures were higher than 30-30
pressures.......
Will the average 30-30 (mostly lever guns) handle this ?


Most of my 30-30 casings have become 32 Win Spl (much
cheaper brass) but after all these year I broke down and
got two 30-30s ......one a pump and the other a bolt ....

I


Yes the actions will handle the increased pressure just fine. The pressure if
you use Ackley's recommendation on loading his improved cartridges does not
increase pressures significantly.
Try the Hornady 32 special brass, it's pretty good stuff , no more expensive
than other chambering they offer, and much less likely to end up with a bunch
of loaded rounds that won't chamber in your 30-30

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Tom W.
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Posted: September 17 2018 at 8:22am | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

The brass OAL doesn't change much with this round as it
does with the 30-06 a.i. I generally trim the necks back
enough so I don't have to trim them for a long time. I DO
like the shorter necks, but my rifle is a single shot, so
there is no problem loading it.

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Tom W.
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Posted: October 14 2018 at 8:23pm | IP Logged Quote Tom W.

While cleaning the brass after my range trip (I just decapped it due to
no dies yet, meds overruled that) and inspecting each case with a
magnifying glass I noticed that the Winchester brass all showed a ring
where the shoulder used to be and the Remington brass didn't. I
thought that was a bit strange.
I ended up discarding three pieces of brass, one being it appeared that
the neck was starting to split, the other two because I just didn't like
the way they looked.

I found a great fire forming load, 6.6 grains of Bullseye and a 160 grain
Lee cast bullet. At 50 yards all of my shots could have been covered
with a silver dollar. It was about two clicks to the right of my POA, but I
didn't change my scope settings yet.

I really enjoyed my range time. Do you have any idea how long it takes
to shoot 50 rounds from a single shot rifle ?   I shot about 16 from my
30-06 A.I. I have it sighted in for 2" high @ 100. The fire forming loads
were all low at 50. But I had a relaxing and enjoyable time.

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